I Sorby Handsaw. Another early handle/late stamp?

Hi Fred,

There is a lot of info to add about this saw, nice find.

You are correct in the dating, the clue I am putting extra weight on is the "Northern Tool Works" part of the stamp. For reasons that will become obvious later,,

Here is an "Turner Naylor & Marples" advert from 1876



The thing I find interesting about this advert, is the engraving of the saw is a saw handle of the style I would expect on a saw of 1870's date. But your saw is very definately a much earlier style, maybe 1790-1810.

Just guessing here, but I wonder if they deliberately chose to make a model with the early style as a marketting ploy. Much the same as modern saw makers like Lie Nielsen are making saws in traditional styles.

Looking back to where the earlier style came from, the gentleman we are looking for is J Sorby, not sure when he first started but he is in the Universal. His mark was the original "I SORBY" not to be confused with "Isaac Sorby" who I'll come back to in a minute.



By the time Pigots 1818,19,20 was printed he was already J Sorby and Sons and the mark was "I H SORBY"



So the original "I SORBY" mark would have been 1790-1818 ish period now if you could establish that John Sorby's works during that period before Spital-Hill was called the "Northern Tool Works" we would have a interesting dilemma.. Actually I suspect a John Sorby from that period would probably have a very simple stamped mark, maybe just a simple "I SORBY" nothing much else.

In Kenneth Roberts "Some 19th Century woodworking tools he shows a family tree for the J Sorby branch. And other firms leading to Marples
I'll scan it and post it here later..

Congratulations Fred, you seem to have the knack of finding rare and interesting saws. With every new saw there is something new to learn.

Regards
Ray

 

Hi Fred,
I'm a little hesitant to post this, because I'm pretty sure it's not correct.
But sometimes the Mysteries are the most interesting...

That said...
Here is the Sorby Family tree, that appears in Kenneth Roberts "Some 19th Century Woodworking Tools"



Simon and others have made extensive searches to try and find "Isaac Sorby" and as far as it is possible to tell, he didn't exist. Kenneth Roberts makes very few mistakes, so perhaps we can forgive this one.

The other error is that the merging of the Turner Naylor and Marples with the "J Sorby" branch must have happened earlier than the diagram shows, since we have evidence of Turner Naylor and Marples using the "I SORBY" mark as early as 1876..

Either way, the history of some of these tool making firms is a history of shifting partnerships and mergers. Makes for interesting research...

Regards
Ray

 

Hi Fred,

Apologies for the lengthy multi-part reply, but just to summarize with respect to your saw.

If the stamp was just "I SORBY" without the "NORTHERN TOOL WORKS" part of the stamp, I would have not hesitated to suggest a date of 1790-1814.

That date would have been based on style and stamping, so I guess it just goes to show, how easy it would be to get it wrong.

As time goes by and we see more saws and more information becomes available it will become clearer.

Thanks Fred, your research was spot-on.

Regards
Ray

PS Forgot to mention the size of the screws, that would have been an additional clue to the later date.

 

Hi Pedder,

Not sure, but Turner Naylor and Marples, (who used the I SORBY mark) continued on up until 1893 when they became Turner Naylor & Co at the same Northern Tool Works, in John Street and then in 1909 they were acquired by Wm Marples.

I don't think Wm Marples ever used the "I SORBY" mark, so I think your saw would be before 1909.

The clown trade mark ( Fred notes "Punchinello?"), is in the 1901 trade marks directory. But is not in their 1876 advertisment. So I think later than 1876



Just going on the look and shape of the handle, I think later than 1880's.

Can you take a close up picture of the mark?

So it's between 1876 and 1909, I think best guess 1890's. So it's around 120 years old..

Regards
Ray