Howel and handles

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by fred0325, Aug 23, 2015.

  1. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hello all,

    I don't know if there is a Howel on this site (I suspect that there is although I cannot find it), but I have decided to put this one on in any case.

    BSSM has Howel operating from 1799 to 1828.

    Whilst it is a nice saw in its own right even if the handle looks as though it has been scrubbed, what particularly interests me is the handle shape in comparison to an I Hill late Howel that I got some time ago.

    They are very, very similar except for the handle thickness (and surprisingly to me at least, the thicker handle is on the Hill late Howel). BSSM has Hill late Howel (HlH) operating from 1834 onwards.

    This close similarity raises a number of (probably unresolvable) issues. Did HlH use the same handle maker as Howell? Did he supply a template to a different handle maker?

    And the major sticking point for me is:- How could handle shapes be so consistent over time if, as I suspect, handles were handmade? Or, of course, were these two handles, and therefore saws, made virtually at the same time but by the different firms? i.e at the latter end of Howel and the start of HlH. I would imagine that the archaic I for J would put this saw at the earlier end of HlH's production but BSSM puts this Howel mark at 1820 at the latest and which would still make a 15 - ish year gap between the saws.

    Questions, questions - and so few answers.

    Fred

    PS I have just found in my photo albums that I have a series of images of a Howell saw like the one posted here and so it is odds on that this saw is on the site somewhere. The final three photo's are of this saw just for good measure.

    Just to clear up any confusion as to which Howel is which, the images of the one that is the subject of this post has the caption name misspelled (Howell) on the thumbnail.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 23, 2015
  2. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    376
    Hey Fred
    I am glad to see that nice Howel saw go to a good home. Another great saw.
    If you are trying to find your original post, here it is. Lots of good info. http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/howel.418/#post-2653
    As for the handle similarities, this is only conjecture. As a saw maker I would probably want to order a lot of handles at the same time so all these would have similar shape and size. I might order a lot , I am sure a bunch would have been set aside and depending on the number of saws made over the years, I think there would be some that had been sitting aside for a long time, even from the passing of one maker to the next like "Hill late Howel". The makers of saw handles would surely have had templates just to make life easier and these templates would vary slightly on the maker but would be similar to the conventional needs of the maker and user. I am sure we wouldn't have examples of templates because it it would be so similar to a usable handle. My WAG here.
    Enjoy
    Joe S.
     
  3. David

    David Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    315
    Hello Fred & Joe,
    Here's another Howel from London, and I guess the 13/16" thick handle is similar enough to be included in this discussion. But the difference is, I think, in the spine. This example has a taper of 1/16' of an inch from handle to toe. From what I can see, both of your examples, Fred, have parallel spines. Is that correct? Although I'm not really sure what it might mean in terms of dating the saw, if anything. In any case, they both have the same Howel stamp with the "L" hiccuped slightly above the "E", so I think they're coeval.

    Anyway, in the interest of completeness or ease of research I've thought to put it here with your examples. The more examples we look at....either the more we learn or the more we get confused.
    David
     

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  4. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Active Member

    Messages:
    26
    Fred
    I know it’s an old thread but I’m putting together a working set of 6 I Hill saws from 9” to 16” and I’ve been looking closely at I Hill’s.

    1/ I found the no sun saws have thicker handles, so they couldn’t of been left over Howel handles.

    2/ The open I Hill handles had different cheek sizes depending on what size saw they go on, but from the cheek back they are identical, like they were machine made. The closed handles also have different cheeks size depending on saws length but the handles are not the same and they look like they were made different people. I think there is a good chance that the open handles for both Howel and I Hill saws were made in house.

    3/ The no sun I Hill has the same small London stamp that you see on Howel saws and I’m thinking the no sun saws were made in 1834-1836 at 64 Cromer Street.

    Peter