Groves back saw for dating

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by Barleys, Dec 4, 2015.

  1. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    546
    This nice little 9inch iron-backed saw was begging to be taken off a dealer's table at a recent sale, so I obliged, but only, you all understand, in the interests of historical completeness, as I simply cannot make up my mind what date it could be. There is the usual problem of open-handled back saws, that the dating features change very little over long periods, so we have to fall back on things like the style of the mark, and that really is about the only thing to go on here, except to note the absence of some Groves' features like the decorative medallions (1770, or the stylised crown), the words Cast or German steel, with or without the inter-placed dot, the initial R with Groves, or the word USE. The letters of the mark are very small, and the nearest I can get in similar style are those of c1820 and c1830 which I attach as well. One very useful dating feature would be the style of the ampersand, but it's too corroded for me to be sure what it originally looked like.
    So I'm left with probably an early Groves (?1820-1830), but without any indication of the steel, which is a very unusual omission for saws of this date. I suppose this saw really does contribute to completeness, because if I'm right about the date, it's a first (for me, anyway) without a description of the steel. I wonder if it was an inferior/cheaper product on which the maker didn't put "German steel".
    Ideas welcomed!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hi Simon,
    An enigma is it not? I have little of use (pun intended) to say except a couple of observations.

    Looking at your photograph, the ampersand is upright. There appears to be the loopy thing (if that is the technical term for it) at the top and immediately and vertically below it (taking the curve of the stamp into account) is a bulbous bottom of the central downstroke. See the image below. My cross line drawn on the ampersand is where I think the cross line connecting top and bottom of the ampersand is.

    What looks more interesting to me and which I cannot believe to be true, is that immediately before the ampersand is a second "S" at the end of "Groves". (Very crudely pencilled in by me). Should that be the case then it really is a turn-up for the book. :) I am assuming that what I think is an extra "S", you are reading as part of the ampersand stamp and you may well be right. But the more I look at the mark the more I see a second "S". However, if that is the case, the ampersand may well overlap or impinge on the "S" very slightly and this is a potential problem.

    It still doesn't help with the dating as an upright ampersand would very possibly fit into the dates that you give.

    On a gut feeling and an extreme WAG I would probably go for nearer 1830 than 1820

    Fred

    upload_2015-12-4_18-23-17.png
     
  3. David

    David Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    315
    Hi Simon & Fred,
    I certainly can't distinguish anything clearly from what should be an ampersand on that saw, nor can I read an S into that illegible stamp that should match the final S in Groves. But I do have a saw marked Groves & Sons with a fallen ampersand, no indication of steel type, and the very same handle as the one Simon shows. I know handles mean much less than stamps, but in this case it may suggest that the ampersand on Simon's saw might actually be fallen. If only there were a way to clean out the die stamp some more. Perhaps hydrogen peroxide and a toothbrush? That works on skinned knees.
    David

    Groves & Sons.jpg Groves & Sons die stamp.jpg