Hello all, This is the nearest that I have got to a Groves and Co., and it is, of course not the saw but the blade. And even only a bit of a blade at that. I am a bit of a sucker for these small Lancashire patterned bow saws for iron especially one with a rear blade mounting mechanism like this, but to keep Ray happy and the post relevant to the site I will not dwell on the saw but the blade. First off, not for a moment do I believe that Groves made hacksaw blades and particularly not this hacked (pun intended) around one. If they did it would be a turn-up for the book - or someone's book at least. It is an early blade, the ampersand being substantially reclined and I hope that the "& Co." puts it in the first 20 years of the 19th Century, if not a little earlier. I am assuming that the original blade was on something like a keyhole saw as the mark is probably a little too small (15mm long) for a handsaw and a little too late for it to be stamped on the blade of a backsaw. Oh, the WAGS that could be done on that if there was any evidence whatsoever. The blade is about 25 thou. and so it has probably been thinned down from a thicker one. Although if this is true it must have been thinned entirely from the back as the stamp does not seem to have been abraded away at all. And surprisingly for a blade this age it is surprisingly clean with only tiny (pinpoint) corrosion pits on it, which implies lack of use for a long time, or recent use. Anyway, the main point of putting this on here is that it is someone's testament to the hardness and quality of the steel of an early Groves blade for a (presumably) wood saw. Put 12 points per inch on one and you can turn it into a hacksaw. Fred Mmm - 25 thou., now which saws have a blade thickness of about that. What did I say about WAGS?
Hi Fred, I'm not sure why you are so adamant that Groves & Co never made blades for hacksaws. With no catalogs or other info from then we don't know anything for certain. But certainly they had to be made and who was better equipped for the work than a saw maker? I seems possible to me. Or do you think that since these blades are so often not marked that the existence of a mark makes the blade more likely a make-do adaptation?
Hi David, You are, of course, absolutely right that it is possible that Groves made blades for hacksaws, but then we have to move from possibilities to probabilities. As you say, there are no catalogues or, to my very limited knowledge, other indications that he did, although no indication does not necessarily mean a contra-indication. That I accept as well. It just seems strange to the point of it being improbable that this blade, particularly with the adaptations that it has had at either end, started its life as a hacksaw blade. Neither do I believe that I am lucky enough to have the only one known (so far) if it is one. Do not get me wrong, I would love for it to be a Groves blade for a bow saw for iron and if another one ever comes along, I will welcome the fact with open arms that this is more likely to be one as well. But I think until the time that supporting evidence is found, I prefer to "play it safe" so as not to be disappointed. I will say one thing in favour of your views, however. I have taken the tension off the blade and it has the feel and springiness of a good quality hacksaw blade of modern manufacture. But then I have not had the opportunity to compare the above qualities with a known example of a cut down early Groves woodsaw blade - unless of course this is one. Fred
That is a lovely early hacksaw Fred! I love that looped rear blade mount, I've not seen that style before. Here is a couple of photos of some Groves keyhole saws, the top one is Groves & Sons in an "arched" stamp, the lower has Groves & Sons in a line, I know the blades had some use, but the reason why I'm posting them is to show that your blade most likely isn't a keyhole saw blade, perhaps you could cut a 4" & thin blade out of a keyhole saw, but the blade width because of the sharp taper would have to be only 8-10mm to retain the name stamp, would that fit with yours? How long & high is the name stamp on yours, these are 17mm long & 1.5mm high letters. If your stamp is small, I think it would be unlikely to come from a cut down hand saw either, so it may in fact be a genuine Groves & Co hacksaw... Regards Mari
Hi Mari, The blade, mounting pin to mounting pin is 7 1/2 inches long. From tooth gullet to the back of the blade is 0.45 inches ( approx 11.2mm), with the widest piece being o.5 inches wide, and to change into millimetres for the stamp, the length is 15.5mm with the height of the letters at 1.8mm. You are right about the taper on a keyhole saw. I could not get this blade out of the one that I use. That puts the blade in the region of a small table saw or similar, a backsaw, or a purpose made hacksaw blade. I am giving up for the time being in the hope that, sooner or later some supporting evidence either way will crop up. Fred
A very sweet saw, Fred, but please, on this forum we should use the correct word for the product, which was at that time "Bow saw for iron". As for what time that was, I'm sure it's the earliest B for I I've seen by Groves, and I'd doubt if it was any later than 1820. Have seen other similar saws that have seemed to call out from the maker a need to make beautifully finished wrought iron frames. (have helped myself to the mark: many thanks) Simon