Disston Dovetail Saws

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by TraditionalToolworks, Feb 5, 2012.

  1. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    These is my Disston Dovetail collection. These are some of the only Disston saws that I avidly collect over the years, as I have grown to despise Henry Disston for his evolution to mass produce handsaws which had previously been 100% handcrafted. However, these are some of the rarest of Disston backsaws and I have used a few of these for much of my learning to cut joinery...at a time before I made my own saws. I also use one of the small No. 68s to cut saw kerfs for some backsaws, not all.

    These dovetail saws are yet another example of less craftmanship, in that they were not as high of a quality of saw as the No 4, for instance, but these were the saws intended for fine joinery and price was high to make them for some reason and they didn't sell well. I think it can be related to cost vs. quality, but won't go down that rat hole. I prefer the older fluted style handle. But that is my own preference. Hence, most of mine are fluted. ;)

    Rear: New unused Disston No. 68 in box with original wax paper wrapping. Older non-fluted handles. This is very collectable as it is in the original OEM box with wrapping, all in pristine unused condition. Newer non-fluted handle.

    Front of No. 68: Three Disston No. 70s, one in the back is most likely unused 8". A 10" Disston No 70 in front of that, and a 12" Disston No. 70 in front of that. The 12" is a very rare saw, and could be the only 12" I've seen. I have only seen about 6 other No. 70s in my ventures, some were outrageously priced, or got outbid on ebay.

    Front of 70s on maple board: Disston No. 68s, 2 x 8" and 1 x 10" All 3 are the older fluted handles.

    Front No. 68s on ebony board: Pennsylvania 168s: 1 x 8", 2 x 10", 1 x 12" 3 of these saws are fluted handles and one is the newer non-fluted handle.

    NOT PICTURED: Disston No. 71 offset which I use as a flush cut saw and is in the garage.

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  2. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi Alan,

    Nice selection, thanks for posting those, I have a couple that I haven't identified, so that will help.

    How were they marked? I don't see a makers mark on the spine, or an etch.. (I'm looking at the pristine one The 68..near the box) or is that just my failing eyesight..

    Regards
    Ray
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
  3. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    189
    Ray,

    They are not marked very well. On the Disston saws, the small folded back is brass plated, and the plating wears off over time. There is no maker's mark on the back. There is a light etch on the blade which often wears off as well, but most often you can see some faint marks from the etch.

    There are no medallions on the nuts, and they incorporated a simple dome with no markings. Most often if you are not familiar with these saws you would pass them up not knowing what they are, and that is how I've gotten at least a few of them.

    On the Pennsylvania models there was no brass plating on the back and they were cut square on the front. They are pretty much the same saw otherwise.

    On the gent style saws, all of the ones had flutes on the handles, both Disston and Pennsylvania. The newer handles were smooth, and feel a bit more clunky in your hand. Although the brand new unused 68 has a newer smooth and non-fluted style handle, it is worth quite a bit to a collector as it has the original box and original wax paper. They shipped 2 saws in a box, so it's missing one of the saws.
     
  4. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    189
    Ray,

    Here is some better pics of the No 70s. The 68s are pretty much the same, but the price was quite a bit less on the gent model, so more of those sold. Also, Disston priced the saws on the saw length, so the larger saws as the 12" model is rarely seen.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  5. planemaker

    planemaker Active Member

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    Disston # 70 D/Ts

    Hi Alan. You have a nice collection of # 70s. I did notice that the 12" saw is of a much earlier vintage than the rest of them. The difference is evident by the extra cove along the top. Added to that is the earlier saw handle was much more shapely than the later versions produced by Disston. This information is available on the Disstonian web site where it details the # 70 as it looked in the 1918 cat. and then the 1932 cat. I have an earlier model with the 8" blade. I will take some photo's and forward them to you.

    Regards; Stewie.
     
  6. planemaker

    planemaker Active Member

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    Disston No.70 Dovetail Saw. (1918 Catalogue)

    Hi Alan. As mentioned in the previous post I have taken photo's of my DT # 70. The handle has the shaping listed in Disstons 1918 Catalogue.

    Regards; Stewie.

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  7. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    Stewie,

    While this is kinda true, none of these are really that old, all are from the 20th century. My favorite saws are from the early part of the 19th century, and specifically from England. I consider those to be some of the best and most stylish saws made. They had the most craftsmanship put into them.

    FWIW, Erik von Sneidern is not very fond of me, since I have always been so critical of Henry Disston continuing to remove craftsmanship from his saws until they were piles of crap, like the mid 50s. Aside from having such thick plates, if you shape the handles they do make a fine saw, but it will always be a Disston...:rolleyes: Erik really believes that Henry Disston walked on water. I only collect these dovetail saws as they are rare, but of all the saws I have I probably only have about 6-12 Disstons (not counting these dovetails), 2 of those are full sized handsaws. I only own 2 or 3 full size handsaws. All the rest are backsaws.

    In fact, as you note, Disston removed the extra point/step on the earlier ones, I wouldn't call that a cove, the cove is the curved section below that just above the back. Any possible way that Disston could simplify the process of making saws so that no humans would need to touch them, he considered the preferred way. For Disston it was all about the cost of manufacturing the saws and making the most profit. In the end he ended up with crappy saws.;)

    Notice how most all of the brass is worn off yours, that is pretty typical of the 68/70. If you get too agressive on cleaning them, the brass will come off also.

    Still, that's a nice saw you have, the only Disstons I'm even remotely interested in. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  8. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    671
    Hi Alan,

    The progressive slide in quality after the introduction of small power saws applied across the whole saw making industry, with very few exceptions, the hand saw got used less and less. Even today it's a very small population of largely hobbyist woodworkers that are using handsaws.

    What Peter Taran and Patrick Leach did in 1996 with Independence Saws was quite revolutionary, and paved the way for a revival in quality saws.

    I think Eric Von Sneidern would agree with you about the quality of the later Disstons.. Particularily the post ww2 era :)

    The more I look at the #70's the more perplexed I am about the George Bishop?

    Regards
    Ray
     
  9. planemaker

    planemaker Active Member

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    Hi Ray & Alan. Can either of you gentleman racall what year it was that domestic power saws became commercially available to the general public. I am trying to work out the timeline from when hand saw makers were begining to feel the impact of this new technology. (Near the same time, the ever increasing range of woodworking power tools must have generated a huge loss in revenue & sales to other well known manufacturers of hand tools such as Stanley).

    As an added question. During the 1800s the U.S. Government put a ban on imported British steel as a means of developing their own steel Industry. From memory this decision served to greatly benefit Disston over other U.S. saw makers (with the possible exception of Aitkins) as they could aready produce their own independant saw steel supply. This would of course given Disston a huge cost and supply advantage that allowed them to dominate hand saw market. In what year did the ban on imported steel occur.

    Regards; Stewie
     
  10. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    189
    Yes, it was 1908 I believe, when Louis Allis partnered with another company to create the first powered saw. Prior to that they were running on line shafts with belts, so the machines didn't change too much, and had babbitt bearings at that time. We then start to see ball bearings around 1920-1930, and it's a grey line as many of the companies, such as Crescent produced both as line shafts still existed.

    Also of importance was about 1918, best I can tell that jointers went from square head to round heads, a huge improvement in safety. This was truly the demise of the handsaw, in addition to Sears selling bungalow homes with pre-cut lumber. Once that was done it seems less saws were sold in that era also. Yet they still needed a saw to cut the lengths of some of the timber and finish the homes, but more was pre-cut at that time. Early 1900s is when Sears was selling Arts & Crafts style bungalows.
    While this is true, the biggest impact was when the companies were able to downsize the saws, and that didn't happen until approx 1940. Delta was the leader in that area as their saw was so inexpensive and good enough quality for professional shops to use.

    Be careful, once Delta gets in your blood you'll be running around like that Bohn Head over on OWWM trying to figure out if you have the first Unisaw...:D I have a table saw from the 40s that will eat Unisaw for breakfast...it's a 5HP direct drive Yates American G-89. As such Keith Bohn doesn't like me as I am not fond of Unisaws. You can probably see a pattern here, I don't play along with opinionated people who are not willing to have an open view. The inet is a free forum to exchange ideas, we all should honor each other's thoughts, whether we believe in all of them or not. My $0.02.
    I hadn't heard they put a ban on British steel, it was the Brits who perfected the process (Bessimer) in producing modern steel around 1865. It all had to do with cost, and Disston had a huge advantage in being able to produce his own steel in that regard. This is one reason so many saw makers were willing to be bought out and/or partnered with Disston, he had the ability to make his own steel.

    Let us not forget however, Disston bought up companies and spit them out like waste. He filed all types of patents and bought companies for their patents. Disston was an evil company, IMO, much like microsoft of the 20th century.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  11. planemaker

    planemaker Active Member

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    Hi Alan. The attached information is included within the Disstonian Institute's web site.

    Regards; Stewie.



    The saw works had been destroyed by fire in 1849. Despite all the setbacks Disston suffered thoughout his company's first decade, the saws were of superior quality, as evidenced by those saws that survive. By the early 1850's the Disston company had turned a corner and was well on its way to being a profitable and leading manufacturer of saws. In 1855, Disston became the first saw manufacturer to produce his own steel. This was the factor that made Disston the most successful saw manufacturer in the U.S. The Morrill Tariff Act of 1861 greatly increased the cost of imported steel, making it impossible for other saw makers to compete with Disston.
     
  12. kiwi

    kiwi Most Valued Member

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    Nice saws Alan, Stewie.
    Although I've been more attracted to the old style saws of the 1800s, I think now I'll also keep a lookout for a No. 70, (preferably made by Disston Canada). ( although the high prices of collectable Disstons will likely thwart my bargain price inclinations)

    Stewie, As I understand it, the U.S. used punative import tarrifs rather than an outright ban on imported steel. High tarrifs in the 1820s had been steadily reduced to a low in 1857 when imports were subject to 17-21% import tarrif. Then the Morrill Tarrif Act of 1861 increased this rate by 50% and additional subsequent increases during Lincoln's administration further increased tarrifs so that by 1865 import tarrif was 38-48%
    [Some say the tarrifs were the real cause of the U.S. Civil War. There was a philosophical split between the northern states that wanted protection for their struggling industrialisation, and the agricultural southern states that wanted free trade to get cheaper supplies and equipment. (The Emancipation Proclamation for the abolition of slavery didn't come into effect until well after the war was begun)]
    High tarrifs on steel imports continued until about 1913. So as Henry Disston already had his own steel production he was the lucky recipient of this favourable government policy, and was able to work this advantage to dominate other U.S. sawmakers who didn't have their own steel sawplate production facilities.
    Harvey Peace was a frequent (but unsuccessful) protestor against the high tarrifs that threatened his business http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/PeaceH/history/hPeace-history2.asp
    [Sawmaking here in Canada was also shaped by goverment tarrif policy. High Canadian import tarrifs convinced the neighbouring U.S. sawmakers to set up subsidiary manufacturing plants in Canada. (Flint, Disston, Atkins) ]

    oops! I see you've already answered the question. (I missed looking at page 2). another brain fart.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2012
  13. planemaker

    planemaker Active Member

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    Thanks Kiwi. You have put some excellent early history together for us to fully understand the impact that smaller saw makers faced with high tariffs on imported steel, having to compete with larger saw making enterprises such as Disston who could produce their own steel. Disston were well placed to put a monopoly on the hand saw market, creating much pressure on his rivals to either fold or except a take-over. It would be fair comment to suggest that H.D. was a very smart business man who was able to identify his business competitors weaknesses. To also suggest that he was able to influence U.S. policy over imported steel would not be an unfair asumpsion to make. Harvey W. Peace was spot on with his statement about the unfair playing field he and other saw makers faced by this
    Morrill Tarrif Act of 1861.

    Nice work.

    Regards; Stewie.
     
  14. planemaker

    planemaker Active Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2012
  15. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    Stewie,

    Thanks for posting that info. I'd like to compare it to the ones I have, but I have my protractor/ruler at the yard. I don't think I have anything else that I can measure angle. 2 of mine have noticeably different hang.

    I was once enamored with the size and ppi of these saws, I bought a Disston No 68 from Walt Quadratto up at Brass City. It was in great condition, other than needing a sharpening. It was my first western saw. The No 68 is a great dovetail saw, as is the No 70.

    The plate is smaller than the No. 04, although many call the No 4 a dovetail saw, it's not. As you know, they are quite different.

    That said, the very first saw I made was patterned off a No 70/68, 16 ppi, 8" long, 1-3/4" deep (approx). As it turns out the inexpensive Crown 8" gent saw is pretty close to what a Disston 68/70 plate is. The way the back is made, very similar...so back in 2005 for Galootaclaus on the old tools list. I made this and gave it away. I didn't really make the saw, because I bought the plate, cut the gent's handle off, and made an open handle for it. I used Chicago nuts. I guess this is my version of a No 70. But I really only made the handle.

    Even worse, Ace hardware used to sell the Chicago nuts when I bought them, but only silver...there's one thing that always bugged me about this saw, it has silver saw nuts with a brass back...I hate mixing metal color like that. You can get brass ones at Tandy Leather I think, but didn't know that back then. :rolleyes:

    DISCLAIMER: I tried to create a handle that would line your finger up properly so that it was pointing down the side, since that is proper saw etiquette. Both sides were done, in case a left handed person wanted to use the saw. It looks funny in that regard.:)

    I think I used a Nicholson 49 possibly on the handle. It was a 1" thick piece of maple burl...the saw does stand on it's own, surprising enough. The guy who got it was George Wallace, he lives down in SoCal.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
  16. planemaker

    planemaker Active Member

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    Hi Alan. I really like the above handle you made. The grain looks very similar to burl timber. It has a some what prehistoric look to it. As though it could have been shaped from bone.

    When I make my own backsaws I set the hang of the handle so that the forefinger points to the tooth line at the very toe. As the length of saw plate increases, so the hang of the handle starts to lower, and vise versa. I suppose every saw maker develops their own distinctive way of doing things. I personally prefer the lower set handles more commonly seen before Disston got control of the hand saw market, and as such influenced a change in style of backsaws to a higher set handle.

    For something a little different I am going to make a very close copy of the Disston # 70. This was the real impetus for scanning the handle shape. I have already thicknessed the handle blank to 11/16", cut out the paper template, and glued it to the blank. The brass spine is going to create a bit of extra work. I will be using some slit brass but I will gave to reduce its height to 9/16" as per the drawing. As a side benefit, by reducing the brass spine height, it will also create a lighter weight saw; essentual for a really good dt. I will set the spine mortise on the handle a little further in than is shown on the original. This should aid a stronger assembly. Its going to be fairly critical to get the mortise depth right due to its close proximity to the top saw screw. Should be an interesting project.

    Stewie;
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2012
  17. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    Yes, that's because it is burl...:) It's not my favorite burl, but I just bought a chunk of it from Woodcraft at the time. They sell some exotic woods for turning.
    I try to aim to the middle of the plate.
    Yes, i do believe it is a personal choice. Most people can use most any handle hang, given the time to get used to it. A sharp saw is most important.
    Given the right tool, that's not that hard. Even a small mini-mill can do that. In fact, Mike Wenzloff uses 2 mini-mills to slot his backs.

    I will say this, Mike Wenzloff has helped me a bunch in the past, I knew him before he was making saws. He has been the single most helpful person on making saws. I hope he gets things squared away in his life so he can build lots of saws, he does enjoy doing that. Mike produces and sells more saws that any other vendor. Just his saws at LV must be a staggering number.
    I completely agree, see my other message I just replied, I'm for a well balanced saw. OTOH, I was watching a video at Woodcraft of Rob Cossman gloating how a heavy saw is better and that his saws are twice as heavy as other saws. I don't believe that at all.
    You could always go through the back. Rob Cossman does his saws like that and I agree, it does make for a strong design.