Hello all, Here's a saw I'd appreciate some input on. The stamp reads Beardshaw & Son German Steel. There are three crowns surrounding the text and the ampersand looks similar to the number 8 lying on it's side. I'm assuming this saw originally had brass split nut screws, but based on the indentations for the screw heads and nuts, their diameter must have only been 3/8". The characteristics of the saw lead me to believe it's pretty old, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on how old it may be, plus any other observations you may have. Thanks. Bob
Hi Bob, Interesting saw. While some characteristics of your saw seem to indicate "old" (as in early Beardshaw, HSMOB lists they started 1825, ), I think I'm more inclined to guess that its more likely later, with the possibility that the 3 screw London pattern handle and the German Steel stamp are indications of construction economy and that the saw is one of Beardshaw's later second quality saws. I could of course be completely wrong ! One of my Beardshaw saws has the same "Beardshaw" over "& Son" as your saw, but over "warranted London Spring" with no crowns observed, (handle is not London flat and saw screws are 4 iron domed nuts) Another has crowns, but "Beardshaw & Son" is in one arch with the ampersand standing, and handle is medallion style. see http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=198 Another saw speculated as being possibly a Beardshaw brand is the "Edwd Taylor" (possibly named after Edward Taylor Beardshaw) with crowns and "German Steel", and which has a similar handle to yours. see http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=201 I'd guessed at the age of these 3 saws to be last third of 1800s,(again, plenty of scope for error here), which while not early Beardshaw is still about 130years old ! Hopefully someone with more knowledge can help with period dates for the use of crown stamps, and of "German Steel"
Hi Bob and Kiwi, Nothing about the saw and mark is of much help in dating really as all the features could be either first or last third of the 19th century, except of course, for the ampersand. It is more than reclining, it is positively prostrate, and which is a bit like my Mitchel from here http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=439 But the partial (and I think, horizontal) ampersand on my saw is a little too early for the Beardshaws. If it is a genuine "mark of its time" and not some later aberration by the person who stamped the saw, it could just about be 1825 and as such, a very early Beardshaw. I would like to think that it is, and looking at the saw, such a date cannot be discounted - but proof, that's another matter. Fred On looking at the mark and the ampersand again ( a bit like our current mark for infinity rather than a classic ampersand) I will stick my neck out and go for "early"
Thanks Kiwi and Fred. I'm fighting owner's bias here, but I tend to think early as well. One thing I didn't mention before is that the plate is very thick -- much heavier than the later second quality saws I've seen. This doesn't seem to fit with the strategy of conserving materials to make a cheaper saw. I looked at the 3 saws Kiwi linked above, and the handle on this saw looks older to me, especially the very narrow forward part. The screw head indentations are smaller than any saw I've seen before. And then there's the ampersand. Before posting, I was thinking this might be an 1830's saw, but I wanted to hear others' thoughts. Like many other saws, we'll never know for sure. Regardless of age, it's a neat old saw.
I was so intrigued with the shape of your ampersand that I looked for other Beardshaws with one and found the one in the image below. It looks like they were a bit skin-flinty with their stamps and just used a number "8" as a substitute. However one good thing is that the "&" or "8" on this saw is upright, and I have a suspicion that it is 1840's at the latest. Fred Edit. I have found a couple more Beardshaw marks with conventional ampersands. The backsaw is cast (dot) by the looks of it and so must be early but I don't know what it means for your saw, probably that yours is just a real oddball. Hopefully a very early oddball but I do now have gnawing doubts now that I have seen the quality of the early cast (dot) mark.
I took a closer look at my Beardshaw with the same name stamp as on Bob's. It may be my imagination, but I think there's a possibility that on my saw the ampersand stamp is only partially defined and that the upper part has been so lightly stamped that it appears to be missing. The result then looks like the same "fallen" of "flat" ampersand as on Bob's saw. My saw also has a thick plate, 0.45" taper ground to 0.35"
Good observation, Kiwi. That could possibly be the case with my saw too. I've also thought about the possibility that my ampersand may be lying down simply because the person doing the stamping inadvertently got the stamp turned 90 degrees.
Beardshaw hand saw I think I can help clarify the mark, as I have a handsaw I've dated at 1860, which seems to have the same mis-struck ampersand, but not quite so much. If you imagine the whole of the top half of the character as missing, it then becomes the infinity sign quite easily. Whether the actual punch mark was defective, or whether part of the mark got ground out in the later processes is anybody's guess. The mark on mine is too indistinct to be certain that it reads German before Steel, but it does have the three crowns (not included in this picture). But of course the marks are different in that mine is straight, not curved. Prolific saw makers had new marks made at very frequent intervals - Groves especially.
In looking for information on this Beardshaw & Son Sash Backsaw I came across this thread and the discussion of the ampersand follows what I have uncovered. I came across another 14" sash that was quoted as being 1840's that had a medallion and Beardshaw & Son over Sheffield. I think this stamp is previous to the Medalion and The stamp with Sheffield underneath. One other oddity is that the front two of the three sawnuts are 1/2" and the rearmost sawnut is 7/16" and all three seem most certain to be original to the saw. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It's all very confusing trying to timeline these saws I have a couple of Beardshaw&Son backsaws; The 14" backsaw has an arced "Beardshaw" over "& Son", same as shown by Jeff$1, but with "cast steel" alongside (saw has a replacement handle) The 10" backsaw has an open handle and an "eagle" Beardshaw medallion, and has the back stamped "Beardshaw&Son" arced over "Sheffield", with "cast-dot-steel" alongside, (and the blade has two holes to mount a depth stop) Usual opinion is that cast-dot-steel denotes 1830s or older, and pre-dating "cast steel" with no dot, so does the smaller saw with the "sheffield" mark pre-date the 14" saw ? And medallions usually mean 1840s at the earliest, which conflicts with the cast-dot-steel dating idea (the handle looks original, and if it's a replacement, it was replaced a hundred years or more ago)
I have & have had quite a few Beardshaws later than 1830-40s with cast.steel, in BSSM they are later with cast.steel, so perhaps they are an exception to the cast.steel rule Regards Mari
exactly Mari, the general cast.steel rule seems to be 1/2 a century out considering the other features on my 10" saw (medallion, crisp stamp details). Other "rules" may be similarly compromised as Manufacturers seem to have resurrected old marks and features after gaps of many years, or used different ones at the same time. That's why saw dating is all very confusing (and interesting). But we can all join the fun of making guesses, (experience based, and Wild Ass Guesses (WAGs)), only probably shouldn't consider these more than guesses, except for those cases with specific date data I might be wrong, but I'd date Jeff$1's saw at 1840-1880
I have often mused that Cast (dot) may well have been put on saws destined for the North American market for some considerable time after 1830/40 because Disston did it until the turn of the 20th Century. Perhaps marketing considerations dictated that British imports should copy the major home-grown producer. Most of the cast(dots) that I have seen have been on (Beardshaw) saws sourced from North America, and even if the odd one turns up elsewhere, it may well be that it never reached its intended destination . Fred
Beardshaws are reasonably common in Oz (especially backsaws), suggesting that they had a significant export trade to the colony but I haven't seen trade catalogues etc to back that assertion. I see three kinds of medallions; none (blank disc), the coat of arms style (from BSSM I take this to be the Sheffield City CoA) and a stylized US eagle medallion. I reckon the blank medallion is the scarcest and early (pre-1850), the Sheffield one BSSM attributes about 1860-80 and the eagle medallion seems to be similar in age. US saws of that age not infrequently turn up in Australia because there was a fair interchange between Oz and California about that time, with diggers returning from the US goldfields and US prospectors trying their luck down under. A lot of whalers and sealers also headed south at that time and one can find US-sourced boat building tools from that era about the place. There was a huge increase in the importation of goods into Australia 1855-1880 due to the gold rushes and dramatic population increase, local museums are full of trade goods from wrecked ships etc. Almost all Beardshaws that I see have cast.steel and they also have beautifully shaped handles with a pronounced 'hump" that makes them easy to grip - they show a very high level of fit and finish and were clearly quality items. The company seems to have continued with "older" features like cast.steel and extensive hand detailing into the late 19th C, maybe to differentiate the company from more mass-produced items.
I agree that the usual cast-dot-steel rule of thumb does not apply to Beardshaw saws. I have three Beardshaw saws that I can share pictures of: a 10", 12", and 14". The first one (12") is interesting because it is not an & Son saw, but rather just "Beardshaws". Simon does have a picture of a stamp of one of these in BSSM and dates it to around 1825. That one is cast steel whereas mine is German steel. I also agree with the thought that Beardshaws have beautifully shaped handles. This next saw's handle shows a lot of age, but it must have been a gorgeous saw when new. What really attracted me to it were the extra facets in the bottom of the tongue. And finally, here's my 10" dovetail saw: - Mark