Taylor Bros- "USE"

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by Joe S, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    Hey Ray et al.
    This is sort of a delayed response to saws4me and Fred with regard to a Groves saw and some of the previous discussions about the use of the "USE'. I noted that it was used in Groves advertising and I thought it it probably wasn't for "US export" but this might change my idea on that.
    Fred and everyone has produced lots of info on the Taylor Bros and this might add some more food for thought on a couple of things. There are a lot of pics but I think they are worthwhile.
    These two 14"steel backsaws were purchased a couple of years ago at a show here in Canada from two venders who were across the aisle from each other. In some ways they could be twins but there are a lot of differences. They are both patinated very similarily and dates would be consistent with each other yet I wouldn't want to be too specific other that saying between 1870-1910 knowing these are getting difficult to really say for sure. As you can see the top saw is typical of what we are used to of a saw at this time and consistent with the details of typical Tylor Bros saws. The "top rounded" spine sports a "Cast Steel Warranted" to the left of the arched "Taylor Brothers" over Adelaide Works. To the left of that is the "Advance" over a scripted Sheffield. The three brass split screws holding the beech handle has a medallion with the Taylor Brothers Sheffield around the sheep holding the flag over "advance". Again fairly typical of the sort of saws we are seeing at that time.
    In contrast to that saw is a very similar Taylor Bros saw... the same but different. This saw was designed to be different from the previous saw that was of a similar age. The steel spine has a rounded front nose, a bevelled top that goes all the way across. An arched "Taylor Brothers" is over the the lying lamb and "advance and Adelaide Works" with a partial "Sheffield" and a "cast steel' to the left and "warranted" to the right. Farther to the right is a most unusual wave shaped "made for USE". All the details of the beech handle are so similar to the previous saw I described except the very different reverse cut out of the cheek. This was intentially done on both sides for a very clever change on the usual fat rounded cheek.The screws are placed in a different way to support the handle. The Taylor Brothers medallion has changed slightly with the lamb having a "halo" over its head and no "Advance".
    I don't know the specific history of this saw and how it arrived here. We have a very fluid border when it comes to tools coming in from the states but I am going to go out on a limb and say that the "made for USE" must be that the saw was destined for export and I can't think of any other explanation for the Grove saws either. Was this the Taylor Brothers way of distinguishing themselves from the rest be creating a different looking saw. Has anyone got any others that don't have a "made for USE" so we can debunk this theory.
    let me know.
    Joe S
     

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  2. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    pics of the second saw
    Joe S
     

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  3. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi Joe,

    Interesting handle shape, reminds me a little of the cove style, but with reverse curves.. I like it..

    The "made for use" I suspect means just what it says, the Victorians were fond of visual puns and word jokes in their trademarks and stamps.

    Think of the picture of a Bear with the words "in mind" underneath, or the picture of a tooth with the words "sharp" underneath. Or Henry Disston's "made for mechanics not botchers" and many more examples.

    The environment of the late 19th century was very competitive and shows in the proliferation of secondary brands and ever more extravagant claims of the advantages of one product over another, or some special steel, like "double extra refined london spring steel". The marketting people were beginning to emerge as every little advantage was exploited to garner more market share.

    In this environment, a "made for use" stamp is (in my humble opinion) most likely just another bit of marketting.

    The halo on the paschal lamb is curious, I have no idea why they would have removed it, or perhaps it was an early omission that was later corrected?

    The differences in spine shape would seem to reflect that different a manufacturing process or machinery was involved? Don't know, more research might shed some light on the differences.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  4. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    1,084
    Hi Joe and Ray,

    I will once again preface this with "I don't really know what I am talking about" and so I will ask questions/make observations rather than make statements which may embarrass me later.

    Re. the top saw in the photo. As you say, a example of virtually any standard saw of the time, (whichever time that is). The halos-less lamb is interesting. As Ray says, it may be an error and looking at the quality of the casting of it, then it either has had a hard paper round in its time or it is a low quality casting generally, with a mistake in it. ( It is a pity that it is not a postage stamp of that age with that sort of mistake. You could probably get a couple of Carribean cruises out of it if that is your sort of thing, although I must add that it's not mine). It is nevertheless a fascinating variation to have.

    But does it have any bearing on age. If it is a mistake, probably not. But if it isn't, might it indicate and earlier saw? A rhetorical question perhaps, but one which I believe is worth asking.

    The other saw (the lower one) I think is a different kettle of fish altogether, either in age or quality or both. It looks to me to be by far the classier of the two and high up the scale in absolute classiness. I know that they are both
    steel backed and that generally speaking puts them in the second division/league, but the lower saw must be somewhere near the top of it.

    The detail on the screw is much more crisp, the handle is a joy to behold, and someone has taken real trouble with the bevelling on the back. I personally think that the format of the impressed mark on the back is much better as well. Not to mention slightly deeper indent in the beak. All these must be indicators of effort, thought and style.

    Is the bottom slightly bevelled as well. I cannot make it out from the photo.
    Also is there a slight spine on the lower ogee and lambs tongue. It looks like there might be on the photo, but again, I cannot see properly.

    But why is it so much nicer? Was it, as you imply, that the saw was designed for export and they tarted it up accordingly to make an impression, or does it have to do with age? And then I can go either way here. Is it a later saw as the more ornate stamp on the back, and the additional verbiage on it may indicate ( and Ray) implies (and for all the reasons that he states), or is it an earlier saw where they took the time and effort to produce a quality piece of kit for no better reason than they could and they wanted to. (Look at the detail/quality some of the middle C 19th Groves saws).

    What all this is getting round to is that I am not sure that the two saws are of the same age. Taylor Brothers ran from 1849 to 1915. It is a matter of:- "Is box standard quality production (upper saw) an indication of an earlier saw" or "Is the additional effort put in to create the lower saw an indicator".

    Perhaps neither, I do not know, but I just have a feeling they are so different that they must be separated in time. I am sure that Simon will know and when Ken Hawley opens his saw wall to the world, all these questions and many others may be answered. I just hope that they let you take cameras in!!

    I don't think that this has really got us anywhere but I find the speculation fascinating: a process beaten only by the beauty of Joes lower saw.

    Fred
     
  5. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi Fred, Joe,

    I agree Fred, the speculation is fun. I think you may be on the right track with your line of thought.

    I've been racking my brain trying to remember where (if) I've seen that handle pattern before, I'm starting to think I'm suffering from early onset dementia, (brought on by looking at too many saws? :) )

    So, here's the question, has anyone else ever seen that handle pattern before?

    Or am I going crazy, ( don't answer that).... :D

    Regards
    Ray
     
  6. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    376
    Hey Guys
    Thanks for the feedback on the two saws. So.... still no difinitive answer to "USE" except as Ray says the late Victorians were probably jolly jokesters. It makes some sense and its an angle I hadn't thought of. All the Taylor saws I have, J and I Taylor and Taylor Bros have the Advance and the resting sheep sans halo so I don't think it was particularly rare.
    I have to agree with you Fred I find the second saw very fetching and a real beauty. I looked at the handle Fred and there is a nicely shaped bevel on the lower ogee and Lambs tongue. The major area that fits the fist is rounded much more than the first saw. The first saw is flat and distinctly beveled which reminds me of the turn of the century saws where a lot more machinery was used to create it. All the bevels in the blade spine seems to be an early to mid 20th century thing contradicting the early dates so I'm having a tough time dating it also.
    I have to include this pic of a saw that is on our favourite auction site. Vickers also used that corporate "USE" that Groves had. Interestingly there is no dot between the Cast and Steel so it isn't all that early.
    Muddying the waters some more.
    Joe S
     

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  7. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi Joe,

    I would think that's good evidence that the "Vickers" saw was actually made for them by Groves.

    I wonder if ebay, archive those pictures somewhere?

    Regards
    Ray
     
  8. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    376
    Hey Ray
    I find that they don't archive long enough so I saved the only other pic included. I wasn't planning on bidding
    For you viewing pleasure...
    Joe S
     

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  9. mattsworld

    mattsworld Member

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    Use....

    Great post....regarding "USE" on saws...

    After reading Jeffrey Tweedale's "Sheffield Steel" book I surmised that "USE" was a brand of steel manufactured in Sheffield. "USE" was simply the mark of that type of steel from one maker in Sheffield. Many makers were partial to one "brand" of steel over another for saws, knives, chisels, etc. Given that their were dozens of different types of steel, and hundreds of different "little messers" in Sheffield in the mid to late 19th century, branding was common to mark quality, and formulas were fiercely protected.

    We see lots of steel brands on saws..."IXL" from Cresson comes to mind. It was certainly more common on British steels though. Once America took over as the premier manufacturer of steel, the branding seemed to disappear.

    Thoughts?
     
  10. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    671
    Hi Matt,

    Interesting thought, but in this case there are two different versions

    First one is the wavy "made for use" on the Taylor Brothers saw.

    The Second one (on the Vicker's saw) is the Richard Groves corporate mark "USE" I don't think it's related to the type of steel as such..

    [​IMG]

    I have Geoffrey Tweedale's book, "Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers" I have only skimmed it, from what you say it sounds like I should go and read up what he says about steel. Of course he wrote a book specifically on Sheffield steel, but I don't have that one.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  11. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi All,

    While browsing Geoffrey Tweedale's book, "Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers"

    I noted a few Victorian trade marks, that might provide some context for the Richard Groves "USE" mark..


    Frederick Ward 's Mark "B4*ANY"
    George Ward "Y.NOT."
    Hiram Wild "EQUAL"
    Samuel Williamson "Match for All" (printed on a match logo)
    Charles Henry Wood "I GUIDE" (picture of a ships rudder)
    George Wostenholm "I*XL" ( wonder if microsoft knows about this)
    Francis Howard "WELL DONE" (picture of arrow hitting the bullseye)
    Kittle Brothers " IC" (with picture of spectacles)


    So, a trademark is not just protection against forgery, but has advertising connotations, they are striving for something that will stick in the mind of a potential customer, that makes their products memorable in some way. With a touch of humor and self promotion..

    In the context and general practice of the era the "USE" trademark fits perfectly.

    Maybe we should start a collection of the most memorable Victorian trademarks..

    Regards
    Ray
     
  12. mattsworld

    mattsworld Member

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    Hi Ray

    You've got exactly the right idea!

    The Tweedale book I was referring to, and would recommend to any and all saw nuts, is "Sheffield Steel and America: A Century of Interdependence" It is a fantastic book and has a chapter on saws in particular.

    Tweedale is the guy we should ask about the USE.....I think Wiktor Kuc (WK Fine Tools) knows him. I am talking to Wiktor later today and will ask him about contact info. As far as I know, Tweedale is THE authority on Sheffield steel, and who better to help solve this mystery than he?

    -Matt
     
  13. summerfi

    summerfi Most Valued Member

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    185
    Hi all,
    This is an old thread, but as additional documentation on the subject of "USE" I thought I'd add my Taylor Brothers saw that is stamped with a wavy "MADE FOR USE" vertically near the handle.

    This saw came to me with a non-original botched up handle, and not having any quarter sawn beech, I made a new handle out of figured walnut. The handle is patterned after a J. Taylor & Son saw. The saw came with no medallion, so I added the WS one. I don't know if it originally had a WS medallion or one with a paschal lamb.
    Bob
     

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