Green, Pickslay & Millington stamped plate

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by Underthedirt, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. Underthedirt

    Underthedirt Most Valued Member

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    225
    Dear all,


    I picked up this saw recently, I don't have any others by this maker Green, Pickslay & Millington & Cast.Steel.

    The features that attracted me to this saw were the unusually shaped handle & also the plate is stamped with what looks like Rutherford or Usterfort & Cast-Steel in tiny font 17mm x 1.7mm & 14mm x 1.7mm.

    At first I thought that may be a cut down hand saw plate installed into a backsaw spine, but the plate is a uniform 21" thou thick all over.

    Any thoughts on why this saw has a stamped plate of a different maker?

    The handle has been repaired at the bottom & also the lambs tongue in a unique fashion, it's been a well loved saw in its working life, its been cut down & the spine stamp is about an 1" out of center, the spine also originally featured a pretty cool arris treatment to the top edges.

    The handle is also quite small by modern standards & is a bit of a squeeze for an average sized hand.

    It's been around the block so to speak, but I think it looks fantastic...:)



    Regards


    Mari
     

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    Underthedirt, Jun 15, 2018
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  2. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi Mari,
    Some saws seem to gather character with age, this one is a great example, for some reason it is very appealing.

    As you no doubt already know Green Pickslay and Millington are quite early, ( early 1800's ) there is some more info here http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/green-pickslay-millington.447/

    I'm trying to recall if I've ever seen a backsaw stamped on the plate rather than the back other than early Birmingham saws, maybe they purchased a stock of saw plate from a Birmingham sawmaker?

    I don't recall ever seeing a Sheffield backsaw stamped on the plate?

    Ray
     
    ray, Jun 15, 2018
    #2
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  3. Underthedirt

    Underthedirt Most Valued Member

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    Hi Ray,

    Thanks for your reply, the only other backsaw that I've seen with a stamped plate is the Kenyon & Green that Simon posted on here a while ago.
    It's a curious thing indeed.

    Regards

    Mari
     
    Underthedirt, Jun 15, 2018
    #3
  4. David

    David Most Valued Member

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    315
    Hi Mari,
    The only Rutherford in BSSM is John from Sheffield, 1833-37, so twenty years after Green Pickslay and Millington ceased operations. A blade stamped saw from Sheffield is quite unlikely from that date, I would think. I do have a thought as to how this might have happened, though. If Mr Rutherford had just gotten a new stamp, he might have wanted to try it out to see if it was correct. If all that was to hand was his own GP & M saw on the bench, he might have just stamped that blade to see that it was okay. I have an early flying eagle penny that is "counterstamped" (which is what coin collectors call such an occurrence) with the mark of W. Conaway, an early Philadelphia sawmaker. I've also seen examples with the W & C Conaway counterstamp as well.
    As I said, it's just a thought.
    The top of the cheek of your handle doesn't seem to align quite properly with the spine which might cause me to think it's a replacement, yet the filing marks on the two split nuts are perfectly aligned as when they were made. There has been some tightening of them, as seen on the back. These old saws all have a lot of history and it's only sometimes we get to sort it out.
    Did you find it in Australia or did it come from elsewhere? In any case, it's a good-looking old survivor.
    David
     
    David, Jun 16, 2018
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  5. Underthedirt

    Underthedirt Most Valued Member

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    Hi David,

    Nice to hear from you..:)
    That's amazing you have found a counter-stamped penny with an early US saw makers mark, how unusual, at least it came to someone who appreciates it.
    The back that protrudes above the handle is due I believe to the front of the spine being knocked down to re tension the blade.
    The stamped plate is quite bizarre & the letters are so tiny & the more I look at the stamp I'm unsure if it IS Rutherford, it reminds me of one of those out of place artifacts- wrong place at the wrong time.
    I picked this one up from England a month or two ago.

    Regards

    Mari
     
    Underthedirt, Jun 17, 2018
    #5
  6. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    The other possibility is Edley & Rutherford, BSSM has them listed in 1825, The Gazette lists that they went bankrupt in 1830, subsequently John Rutherford started up at 52 Arundel Street ( Whites 1833 ) So there may be a period where GPM overlaps with Edley and Rutherford.

    I should add, that since it seems that Green Pickslay & Millington were just "Ironmongers and Hardwaremen" in various incarnations, so it's not improbable that the saw was actually made by Rutherford for GPM, using pre-stamped stock.

    Mr Green: Can we have 2 dozen saws by next Tuesday at the latest?
    Mr Rutherford: I only have stock of with Rutherford stamped plate, next batch is 3 weeks away.
    Mr Green: That will have to suffice, we are out of stock and are desperate.

    It may have even been plate intended for handsaws, rather than backsaws. Which might explain the stamp's existence in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
    ray, Jun 17, 2018
    #6
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  7. Underthedirt

    Underthedirt Most Valued Member

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    Hi Ray,

    Those are good theories & I LOVE the Green & Rutherford conversion...:)

    Saw plates when properly tempered & tensioned are extremely tough, if you've ever tried to re drill holes in a hard plate you'll know what I mean.

    For the above reason I would doubt that the stamp has been made after the plate was hardened for the counter stamping theory.

    If the plate were to be cut from a handsaw plate as opposed to backsaw plate, I would think that that it would be thicker than 21" thou thick & probably show some taper grind- maybe.....

    Also, when laying the GPM over a 26" period saw & working out where the plate could be cut from, the Rutherford(?) & Cast-Steel are over 2" out of center towards the handle if you know what I mean?

    I think it's just going to be one of those head scratchers, but fun to ruminate on...:)

    Do you think it is Rutherford stamped in the plate?

    I wonder if it could be a Birmingham makers plate? Bought up by GPM?

    Regards

    Mari
     
    Underthedirt, Jun 17, 2018
    #7