Hello all, I am sure that I have said it before, but I will say it again, very little with saws is straightforward. This saw was headlined as a James Howarth (which it is). On looking in HSMOB there is no James Howarth but there are:- Howarth and Son (dealers) 1865 to 1879 and Howarth and Sons, James 1879 to 1891 and which was good enough for me to think that I was getting a Howarth 1879 to 1891. But again and alas, no. Having got the saw I looked through the online directories and found the following:- Taylor and Howarth, Fitzwilliam Street Pigots 1841 P 342. James Howarth (an advert), 126 Fitzwilliam Street in Slaters 1847 Howarth James manufacturer of edge tools, engravers and diesinkerstools and cast steel drawer at 124 Fitzwilliam Street in Whites 1849 P131. Having found this I then thought that I might have a Howarth of the late 1840's. I then decided to have one last look in Trademarks on Base Metal and things changed markedly because there, James Howarth is a brand name used by Robert Sorby. So, do I have a Howarth or a Sorby, I am not certain but I suspect a Sorby as the JH trademark with the upwards pointing arrow (see images below) can just about be seen on my saw with a bit of imagination. Well, the arrow can be seen in any case and the rest of it is in the Trademarks on Base Metal image). Does anyone know how Robert Sorby got this mark? Did he take over James Howarth at any time, and did James Howarth later set up his own company with his Sons? Again, all replies appreciated. Fred Sorry, my technophobia has beaten me, I cannot cut and paste a copy from Trademarks, so if you are interested to see the full mark, please go to the Robert Sorby section there. Also please excuse the photo of the mark, but it was the best that I could do.
Hi Fred, Once again, apologies for being a bit slow with this. I suspect that this the mark you are referring to, from trade marks on base metal. The records of marks held at the cutler's hall in Sheffield might have some indication of when the ownership changed. The style looks later, but as we have often seen style can be misleading. Four screws though, usually means later. Regards Ray
James Howarth JH were major edge tool makers, taken over by Robt Sorby at some point in the early 20th cent (sorry, don't know when). By 1919 their TM was listed with Sorby's. I don't think they ever made their own saws, although they turn up pretty frequently - a measure of their success as merchants. It would not have been surprising if RS made their saws for them even before the takeover. The entry in BPM3 has more info. Entry in book as under: HOWARTH, James & Sons SHEFFIELD Bath Street <1868 Broomspring Works, 67 Bath Street 1871-1876 74-80 Bath Street 1879-1880 Bath Street & Eyre Street 1895-1901> 1879: James, James Jnr, Samuel and William Henry [residence: Bath] Howarth, manufacturers of edge tools, joiners’ tools, augers, skates, saws, files, and steel and general merchants. 1913: edge tool manufacturers; it is very unlikely that their saws were not factored. BPM3 gives dates considerably longer than the above, which are those for saw making.
If Robert Sorby acquired James Howarth, in or around 1919 then they would have presumably acquired the mark at the same time and not before. The saw that I have is not a 1919 saw and so the question then becomes "When did James Howarth first use this particular mark"? Simon has him/them as a manufacturer of various things including saws in 1879, which is a much more likely date for my saw. I would put it at my standard date of 1880+. I have just realised that I have two print-offs of advertisments, one in Whites of 1879 and a directory of 1901 whose name currently eludes me as it is not on any of the sheets that I have. There is no mention of a Howarth as a saw manufacturer in 1879 and no trade mark, but there is a mention in the 1901 directory of "Howarth James and Sons, Bath Street" as , amongst other things a "manufacturer of ---------saws etc.". His trade mark is denoted as the JH with the arrow that Ray kindly copied from "Trademarks on Base Metal", but this is portrayed as being inside a diamond. So the trade mark may have appeared in 1879 or at any time between 1879 and 1901 and which is about the right time frame for the saw. HSMOB's dates of 1879 to 1891 and Simon's 1879+ are looking good. But of course the fly in the ointment is the date given by Simon for James Howarth and Sons from 1868+. Would he have used this mark pre 1879? Was he predominantly at this stage (1879) a merchant or a manufacturer of, (specifically among other things), saws, or a merchant who claimed to be a manufacturer? His role would have a major impact on whether or not he made his own saws or whether he had them made for him. (a`la Simon) (sorry - this is the best that I can do for a French accent marking). Is there a definitive answer to these questions? Fred
Hi Fred I know this is an old thread but back in the day James Howarth was a very premium brand of edge tools. I’ve been quietly buying a few Howarth chisels to restore into a nice set. Plenty of info online just lookup James Howarth chisels and they closed in 1912 and your saw is the only Howarth saw I’ve heard of and I think you’d get a very good price for it. Peter