Hello all, This is the third publicly known Webster and Johnson saw that is not marked as such and thus it may well be that the standard mark was Webster and Johnsons and not Johnson singular. (As per BSSM). See a previous thread http://backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/an-expensive-s-webster-and-johnsons.757/ It is also cast(dot)steel which should put it around 1830 -ish, but I think that this is another exception that proves the rule. It is relatively obvious from the medallion whence this saw was destined but I bought it in the UK. And whilst I am very loth to deprive Wiktor of an opportunity for sport, I will not speculate how many times and why this saw has crossed the Atlantic to end up here. I will merely assert that it probably never left these shores in the first place. I will have a bit of a WAG though as to why it has cast(dot) on it, way after the practice had stopped here. It is a pet (but very unproven) idea of mine that saws of around this era and destined for export to the USA may have had the dot put on in order to adhere to the fashion at the time in America for this style of mark (Disston at least). A problem with this theory and this saw, is that I know that American saws were marked as such from the 1850's onwards. I am not so sure that said marking went back into the 1840's. Perhaps someone could enlighten me. Fred Apologies for the 's in the title and not just the plural "s". I can edit the text but cannot change the title.
Hi Fred, I see that the 1846 Slater's Directory lists the company name as Webster & Johnsons'. I don't know the reason for the ending apostrophe, but it does seem that an "s" on the end was the standard spelling and that the listing in BSSM sans the "s" may be an anomaly. Bob
Hi Bob, Thanks for that. I unfortunately cannot find a Slaters 1846 in the current Historical Directories, but I can find a Slaters 1847 Slater's Directories of Important English Towns, 1847 1840-1849 Isaac Slater Warwickshire;Yorkshire;Gloucestershire;Derbyshire;Leicestershire;Lancashire;Nottinghamshire;Staffordshire;Somerset and I can see where Simon got his Johnson from. Does this mean that we can date Simon's saw and hence the mark in his entry in BSSM to 1847 or after that and the other 3 saws to 1846 or prior to it - or is it just another typographical/spelling error in the directories. Fred I have edited the last paragraph above to reverse the datings. I got it completely wrong in the original post.
Well isn't that interesting. It seems that Isaac Slater was just as confused about the name as we are. See the link in my post, Fred, for the 1846 directory.
Fred, Since you mentioned my name, here are a few thoughts. Facts are the most annoying thing for some, but they are there so one has to live with them. They still will be there even if one will choose to ignore them. With that in mind, there are enough tools, not only saws, in UK with this medallion to question theories that are not supported by facts. In particular, there are many bit braces with this medallion, used as a top cover on the head of the brace (the top handle) and they are still in UK. Some of the manufacturers that used this medallion on braces are Flather & Sons and Henry Brown. As you mentioned, this medallion was used in US in 1850s by many saw manufacturers including on branded saws as well as saws made for other parties. With that in mind, the theory that saws were sent in bulk to US to be assembled with this medallion is just a theory which I was not convinced of. As to Johnsons and Johnsons’ I don’t have any input and I think, with enough time spend, you can figure this out yourself.
Another bit of guessing to add to the above (apologies, one and all above). I think W&J employed a mark maker who was either the most illiterate or the most careless in Sheffield. He was able to make a mark calling the company Webster and Johnsong (look at Pete Taran's website www.vintagesaws.com; he illustrates a rip saw with this mark, and gives a description of it which I have corresponded with him about), so what's a dot between cast and steel to bother about? Other companies/partnerships of that era variably used an s after one of the names, eg Edley(s) and Carter, and Fenton and Marsden(s). Whether the variable plural meant there was more than one Edley, Marsden and maybe Johnson, I don't know. As for the American eagle on British-made saws (and other tools, of which I know nothing) it was either used on its own, as it were, with Warranted Superior, or with a maker's name, such as Jonathan Beardshaw, or WK & C Peace or Taylor Bros – and I think the use went on well after 1850, maybe to 1880.