Saw Medallions

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by summerfi, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. Pastahill

    Pastahill Member

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    22
    H&L stands for

    Harkort & Lohmann Tool and sawmaker

    foundet 1888 from Carl Harkort (1832-1894) Tool and sawmaker, out of business about 1940-50.

    The funny thing is they have nothing to do with Munich, because the factory was in Wuppertal-Cronenberg which is about 700 km away from munich.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Pastahill

    Pastahill Member

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    Bob, here i have a funny German one Fabrik Marke Hund und Katze ( Factory Brand Dog and Cat) for you hund und katze.jpg

    and two better pictures of medallions i think you have
    barnsley&sons.jpg
    R.Groves & Sons.JPG
     
    pmcgee likes this.
  3. summerfi

    summerfi Most Valued Member

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    Thanks very much, Pastahill. Nice to have someone who knows this information.
     
  4. kiwi

    kiwi Most Valued Member

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    here's another German one (I think. Perhaps Pastahill can help/confirm)
    Its a "Warranted Superior", same symbols as on Pastahill's "Extra Garantie", on a fairly modern saw, with a blade etch indicating a manufacturer/retailer "K&P" (but I don't know who K&P are)
    K&P3.JPG K&P4.JPG K&P2.JPG
     
  5. Pastahill

    Pastahill Member

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    Hello Kiwi,
    you are right with Germany ,K&P means Koch & Pohlmann the factory was in Wuppertal-Cronenberg ( 1898 – 1992 )
     
  6. kiwi

    kiwi Most Valued Member

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    355
    Thanks Pastahill,
    I've been wondering who K&P were since I found this saw more than a year ago.
    Now with the name you've provided I see that Koch & Pohlmann were a saw making company, with up to 35 employees, making all kinds of saws from 2 man crosscuts to small handsaws, operating from 1898 until bankruptcy in 1992.
    The K&P "crossed saws" trademark (as shown on my etch) was filed in 1950 and registered in 1952
     
  7. Pastahill

    Pastahill Member

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    I think your saw is from the 50 - to early 60th, because then they start here in Germany to fix the Blade with cheaper Rivets. K&P had even Rivets with there trademark on them.
    P1012022.JPG
     
  8. David

    David Most Valued Member

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    315
    Bob,
    Here's another one presently on eBay USA which could be found at "Black Navy Hand Saw" The little ship in the middle of the medallion/label screw is repeated in the etch on the blade. I know nothing about this saw, but the handle is quite distinctive and someone who knows handles may be able to identify the maker.
    David
     

    Attached Files:

  9. David

    David Most Valued Member

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    315
    Hi Bob,
    Here's another one that's on eBay USA right now. It can be found at "black navy hand saw". I've no clue as to the maker, but someone who knows handles may be able to give a good guess as to the actual maker, since the handle is quite distinctive. The little ship in the middle of the label screw/medallion is repeated in the etch on the blade.
    David blacknavysawco.jpg
     
  10. summerfi

    summerfi Most Valued Member

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    Thanks David. That's certainly one I haven't seen before.
     
  11. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    1,084
    Hi Bob,

    I can't see this Joseph Peace one in your collection.

    Fred
     

    Attached Files:

  12. summerfi

    summerfi Most Valued Member

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    Thanks Fred. Nice addition!
     
  13. Frank English

    Frank English Active Member

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    The first medallion is from a Shurley Dietrich 28" 8 p.p.i. crosscut saw which includes a pat. Dec 27, 1887 date. The medallion which is 1". 2nd photo showing split nuts. 3rd photo from a backsaw. No name anywhere but the image inside the medallion similar to what you see in Disston saws. This medallion is 3/4".

    Frank English
    SDmedallion.jpg SD split nuts.jpg unknown.jpg
     
  14. summerfi

    summerfi Most Valued Member

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    Hi Frank,
    The medallion in the 3rd photo is one that Disston used on saws they labeled Warranted Superior, or in the case of this saw, not labeled at all. Not all WS saws were made by Disston, but the ones that were often had a medallion like this or similar.
    Bob
     
  15. Frank English

    Frank English Active Member

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    Thanks Bob, kind of thought it might be but wondered why as every other Disston medallion have seen had printing on them.
    Frank
     
  16. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    1,084
    Hi Bob,

    Another one off Ebay. You already have a "warranted extra" but with an eagle on it. This is a"warranted extra" but has a British coat of arms as per the British W/S.

    It has a patent date of 1869 and is surely on an American saw. I am not sure that we put patent dates on any/many of our medallions especially W/S style ones and so I assume that it is American.

    Fred

    I attach an image of the saw as well for interest.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. wiktor48

    wiktor48 Most Valued Member

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    This is very interesting medallion. The patent on it is from December 21, 1869, which is a Daniel T. Munger's patent no. 98,180. Now, the question would be - was it made the medallion) in US or England? Fred, what are the arguments for a saw being made in US?
    If the saw is American and the patent on this medallion is American, than how did all this come together? Any speculations, ideas?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2014
  18. summerfi

    summerfi Most Valued Member

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    185
    Hi Fred and Wiktor,
    This medallion is actually on my medallion web page, but you were looking in the wrong place. This is a Canadian medallion from a ca. 1880's Shurly Dietrich saw. Joseph Flint also used an eagle on his American saws and a lion/unicorn on his Canadian saws. Flint's medallions read J. Flint Superior.
    Bob
     
  19. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hi Wiktor and Bob,

    I am going to phrase this very carefully and I am not going to argue that the saw was necessarily made in the US. Especially in the light of Bob's post. Although in the absence of Bob's post I would have bet a lot of someone-else's money on it, British coat of arms or not.

    I think that the saw handle is not of British manufacture because were it to be it would very likely have a lamb's tongue. However, either the handle has slipped on loose nuts (very possible) or it is not native to the saw.

    The blade and back could possibly be British but if it were it would probably be earlier than the medallion indicates and have a bright struck mark which is currently obscured by the rust, very low on the back above the chamfer. At first sight I thought that this might be the case and while I will risk a reasonable selling price on the saw itself in order to find out, I am not going to pay USD47.45 for the postage from the USA.

    However all such speculation above is useless as, with the possibility being that it is a Canadian saw some of the conundrums can be reconciled. Although for some reason which I cannot explain, the medallion does not look right in the handle. Which, if right would put matters back up in the air again.

    Fred

    Edit. The saw is being sold from Holland, Michigan and which Google maps tells me is not an awfully long way from Canada.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2014
  20. summerfi

    summerfi Most Valued Member

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    Hi again Fred,
    Not only is Holland, Michigan near the Canadian border, it is not far from Galt, Ontario, Canada where Shurly & Dietrich made saws. Aside from the fact it has 2 screws rather than 3, and the cheek profile is different (it could have been altered), the saw you posted has a handle not too dissimilar to this or this Shurly & Dietrich backsaw, both of which I believe are newer. You may be over thinking the saw, Fred. Since it, 1) has an early Shurly & Dietrich medallion, 2) is being sold not far from the Shurly & Dietrich factory, and 3) has a handle similar to known Shurly & Dietrich backsaws, I would also bet that other person's money this is a Shurly & Dietrich saw. Also of note is that I don't see a makers stamp on the spine of either of the other S&D saws. That still leaves the question of whether the medallion itself was made in Canada, or was it contracted out to someone in the U.S.? I'm afraid I don't have the answer to that.

    Bob