Any clue what his dating is based on? http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARPENED-V...AnLGw7t7sIqmq+wmJC9i3m0=&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc Alternatively - any comment on the similar saw that sold for A LOT recently? Thanks, Paul
Hi Paul, I think that the dating is based on the desire to make money on a putatively early saw. In my very humble and often very wrong opinion, that saw is a candidate for my 1870+ category. The reasoning goes re the 4 saw screws (quite large) and the very pronounced return of the curve under the shoulder. I have noticed on Ebay the quite a few sellers from the USA get the dates of British saws way wrong, sometimes luckily for me they ascribe a date up too 100 years too late. I have bought 2 or 3 early saws on that basis. But this one, I think is much too early and with a silly price to match, even though it has been sharpened and cleaned. But if you look at Ebay there are many British saws (especially backsaws sold by a handful of makers) the asking prices of which are way too much. As evidenced by the fact that they are for sale at the same price week after week. Anyway that's enough ranting for today. Fred
Hi Fred, Paul, Actually the ebay seller, Joe posts on here as need2boat, so he can answer directly regarding dating.. With a firm like S&J that was in business for such a long time, dating is a bit problematic. I did notice that in the ebay listing, Joe, gives a quite comprehensive list of reasons for the 1830's date... Quoting This one however has some tell tale signs of a VERY early production. According to Erv Schaffer book: Hand-Saw Makers of Britain Spear & Jackson started making saws around 1830 and by using Erv’s guidelines for dating and looking at London flat handle, German Steel mark, and split nut screws pre-medallion all point to a late 1820 to early 1830 date. Joe, would have been guided by HSMOB and I'd respectfully disagree with several points raised in HSMOB regarding dating, Specifically 1. German steel mark is not a good indicator, plenty of late 1800's saws with that mark. 2. Split nuts, on a USA made saw would indicate at least prior to Glover's patent 1887, but on a UK maker, the split nuts persisted well into the 1900's 3. London Flat pattern, was a popular style over a much longer period than HSMOB would indicate. 4. Pre Medallion So what date is it? We know that S&J put medallions on saws as early as 1865, probably earlier ( see the Thread "Comparative Dating by Style" ) that would point towards an earlier date, but the 4 screws point towards a later date... so I'm going to give up and hopefully someone else can resolve the contradictions... .... over to Simon? In any event, it is a beautiful saw, in great condition, and I think worth every penny it sold for. I wouldn't be too critical of Joe for suggesting it's 1830, unlike many other ebay sellers, he does give reasons and references for the suggested date. Regards Ray
Not critical ... I have enjoyed reading his blog ... It didn't look too different to a couple of mine ... so the 'reasoning' in total went "I doubt I have a saw that old" I have noticed the nuts on some early saws running in a line straight up the blade edge. I have a Wingfield like that, but without the flattening of the lower handle ... and one more like the S&J but with the handle in a poor state. Thanks, Paul
Hi Paul I think that Ray was probably referring to my rather terse contribution and not yours. I am afraid that Joe was the recipient of my pent up ire at the afore mentioned handful of expensive purveyors of saws in the US. That said, whilst I wholeheartedly apologise for my terminology, I still think that, on balance I am somewhere near right on the date. I just cannot imagine that shaped handle being as early as the 1830's. The two things going for an early date as far as I can see are: the lack of medallion and that line up of screws. I have exactly the same line up on a Marshall Hadfield and that is more likely than not an 1820's/30's saw. But as Ray mentioned, German steel and the London flat are much more "iffy" as dating aids. In fact I am sure that there was once an article on WK Finetools (cited somewhere on this site) that German steel, in the middle to latter part of the 19th century was used in the context of lesser grade saws. I can merely assert from my own collection that London flat handles were sometimes used on saws that I have described as 1870+ cheapies. Now I don't know whether S and J made less than 1st quality saws with their mark on them. but if they did then German steel. a London flat and that handle may go very well together. As I have so often said here, I hope that I am wrong and that any refutations are gratefully received. Fred
Hey Paul From a Joe who never owned this saw but really likes the shape of the handle I would put this saw around the 1850's. Before medallions became popular this handle with the four screws is very shapely. It was at a time where they were making very fine "lambs tongues" and the broken handle will attest to that weakness. They got as little thicker later on. I really can't say I have ever seen a really early specifically dated Spear and Jackson and wonder if a lot of them might be the "Spear" saws. The non square square stamp impression that moves from right to left, messing the Jackson I have seen a few times. I have 1870 "John Spear S&J" marked saws that looks nothing like this saw. Upon closer inspection of the pics of the handles, I also wonder about the bottom most screw which has the ghosting of a larger connector. A washer maybe to hold the pieces together after the handle seperation and brakeage? I would think it would be a very nice user since it has been sharpened and cleaned. Love to hear from the other Joe since he may have a clue to some of its earlier history. Joe S.
I have this UK 'home brand' unloved saw ... I didn't assume it was particularly early ... Paul. I was forgetting, but there is this ghost of a mark ... ... I see there is a "WH Holmes" in the checklist for 1893-1925 ... That would be about what I expected.
S&J - 1830s Can add one or two comments here: German Steel is a quality inferior to, not superior to "Cast steel". A German steel saw would often be sold with a second quality handle, ie London pattern - but of course the workmanship was still wonderful, and this is a lovely saw. The italics of Spear & Jackson, plus the Capitals/lower case of the word Sheffield are more suggestive of 1850-1860. The handle shoulder shape is also later than 1830, I think, but was still illustrated in the S&J catalogue of 1880. The official history of the firm dates itself (and its saw making) from 1760, which was the year when Alexander Spear, a wealthy merchant from Wakefield, and William Love, a Sheffield steel and toolmaker, formed a partnership to be “linen drapers and runners or casters of steel and hardwaremen and to sell all sorts of goods and appurtenances thereto...â€; they were listed in the 1787 directory as factors and steel makers. Documentary evidence however suggests that sawmaking began only towards the end of the 18th century: by 1805 a four-man partnership which included John Spear (nephew of the founder) was renewed; they had been “for several years past partners with the late Alexander Spear making saws and steelâ€. The firm entered the trades directories as saw makers only in 1814, by which time Spear (the company still in his name only) had taken Samuel Jackson as an apprentice, and in 1825 as a partner. An early book of invoices shows that by 1828 their annual turnover was £6695, with extensive sales in Europe and North America; Jackson was an energetic salesman in Europe, but their transatlantic sales at that time were made through Sheffield merchants such as Marshes & Shepherd, who were an altogether larger concern. It's a shame that errors get perpetuated (I blame people who write books...)
Hey guys, I'm sorry I'm just seeing this now and you can always reach out to me. Joe(at)earthlink.net. It's true I'm selling saws to fund the fire but I really do try to get the dates correct. For this saw I mostly used an article on dating from Mike Stimple and the UK makers book and thought I was correct. I'm fine with taking some heat, I'm from NJ, we're the brunt of many jokes. That said I'm doing this because I enjoy fixing up the saws, the history and research takes years to get right. I normally post questions here first but I really thought I was in the ballpark with the S&J and figured someone on email or who knows me would have emailed, Hey your way off. Anyway I'm just wanted to say I read through the posts and will learn from it. Joe